I can't believe its been a month since I blogged and would you believe I STILL have yet to get my computer hooked back up. Guess my blackberry is more useful than I had initially thought!
So not much has happened in the last month. Happy to report no major injuries, financial set backs etc :-) Amiah FINALLY decided to resort to crawling when her efforts to just walk instead failed her however this has not stopped her from still trying to walk all the time. PJ has quite the little bossy attitude and loves to say "nah nah no Miah" ALL DAY long. Anyway, with so little to report I thought I would stir up a little controversy on my blog since, well, I have a habit of enjoying a good debate every now and then (my favorite ones are vaccines and also breast feeding). So I thought I would put this out there and would love to see the perspective of you all.
Majority of you that read this blog are LDS women (unless you are a friend on facebook reading this in my "notes" where it is automatically imported from my blog mhchristoffersen.blogspot.com). Regardless though, I am curious as to your position on women in the LDS church. This is not meant to be a bashing or complaining session, however I am interested in your honest to goodness feelings about the pressures and/or expectations you may or may not feel being a woman of our faith and if you are treated as and "equal" to the men or not. I personally have been struggling for some time now with what I like to call, "the perfection expectation". While these feelings are not related to the doctrine of the church whatsoever I find myself often depressed and feeling anxious and inadequate. My apartment is rarely clean and "perfect", my kids are a nightmare in public always when I need them to be good, I don't have the "perfect" body, the "perfect" attitude and I am certainly not "perfectly" crafty. I work two businesses in and out of my home which is not "perfectly" a stay-at-home mom and find great pleasure in spending a few hours away from home thing and talking about things unrelated to poop, children, husbands and cleaning but feel guilty about it. I worry far too much about what others think and how we may "appear" to others. Perhaps my most controversial feeling is that feel that I am supposed to "submit" (whatever that means) to the man in my life and not have an opinion or thought uniquely mine (which rarely happens by the way but an example of this is whenever I am given a new calling they first ask my husband if its okay and THEN ask me to accept it, they NEVER ask my permission for his callings). And what about the pressure to get married as quick as soon as we are 18 and start having babies one right after another? Like there is something wrong with women who heed the prophets advice to get an education, or stay single for a while or have a successful career (or all of the above)? I am not searching for words of comfort or for anyone to tell me that something like "oh Heather I think you are amazing!" I am looking to see how many more women feel like I do, or different about being a woman in the church. I must say, however, I have spent the last year working very hard on my self image, my perception of the world, and my overall attitude and find myself much more laid back, less depressed and much more accepting of being not perfect and just "good enough", So the floor is open, let's hear what you have to say (first let me remind you that while I love hearing all sides of the issue I will moderate any comments that bash the LDS church or are anti-mormon because that is NOT the purpose for this conversation)
Heather, I am so happy that you wrote this post..(wait, I don't think that I was supposed to say that)...Anyway, I completely agree and I have had those same feelings often. The part that has always bothered me about LDS culture is the marriage at 18 and babies. Here in a predominately LDS area now, it is so bad. When we first moved in, we had been married for 2years and we had no kids. There were so many people who thought that was "wrong." Our neighbor across the road decided to only have 2 children and she had been married for 7 years before they had children. At the time they lived in Utah and were judged for their decision. Anyway, the point of all this is that, I agree and I think that LDS women should be able to make their own choices. One last thing, I am not "perfect" in any of those things either.
ReplyDeleteHeather -- Gosh, you sound normal. Living outside of "Zion", I have not been bothered by these things. Part of that is, I am sure, due to my independent spirit. Submission to me is in following a righteous spouse in righteousness. As Brigham Young once told a sister, who thought her husband was leading her down the wrong path, "You Don't have to go!" Marriage and children -- Try marrying at 39! The Lord sends us children when we are ready for them -- both for our sakes and the sakes of our children. Some of the matters you brought up are, I believe, due in part to early church life and life in the 1800/early 1900's in general. You had children and marriage early because (1) your life span was shorter than now and (2) most people were 'self-employed' and needed the children to help. As for your other perfection items, we are striving to become perfect -- not having to be perfect now. You are good at what you do and have great children. Hope to meet Miah one day. Our adoption of the girls grows closer. People tell us "you are so amazing to be doing what you are doing". We aren't doing anything we aren't supposed to be doing -- and it is not a selfish act on our part. We thought we would serve a mission in our later years, but our mission turns out to be the girls. What's wrong with that? Now I just have to learn to cope with the terrible 2's and the terrorist 3's.
ReplyDeleteIt's certainly interesting that so many of us feel this way and don't bother to talk about it! When I was at school at BYUI, one of my professors told us that the highest rate of women on anti-depressants is in Utah! Apparently we are ALL trying to do and be the best...when in reality, we are just needlessly and sometimes unconsciously competing against one another! I often think about why it is that I feel I have to be the best wife, the best mom, the best visiting teacher, chef, housekeeper, chauffeur and...puke, puke...everything else! Sometimes I think it stems a lot from the talks from the pulpit (which WE give), lessons in RS (which WE give), etc. A lot of us don't want to admit what we do wrong, but rather what WORKS for us, no matter how many times we had to FAIL to find what works! Then, when we talk about what works, we forget to tell about the journey to what works and all the failure! I hope that makes sense...what I'm really trying to say is that I think we all need to be a bit more honest (or at least I need to be) and share more of the times that I WASN'T perfect. We can all learn so much from each other!
ReplyDeleteI think that a lot of the things you mentioned are the culture of the church and not the doctrine of the church. We think we have to be "perfect", and admittedly it is often taught that way in normal Sunday meetings, but never in General Conference or from the Lord has it ever been said that we must be "perfect" here and now. We should always be trying to excel, and there is always something else that we aren't so good at or consistent with, but we are never going to successfully master it all right now. We have eternity to learn to be a god, and Heavenly Father has already spent an eternity becoming perfect himself. It's ridiculous for us to think we can do it in the mere 90 or so years we are given in mortality. (No worries though. I suffer from the same perfect bug. My house is never clean enough. I am never knowledgeable enough. etc, etc, etc) With the "submitting" thing . . . I absolutely, completely and wholeheartedly, REFUSE to "submit" to my husband. I grew up in a home where the Priesthood was used as an excuse to be abusive and tyrannical. I swore I would never be in a home like that again. I also swore if I had to, I would never marry PERIOD. I was at a sealing of a friend and had true eternal marriage explained the best I have ever heard it. He likened it to the Brethren, and said that when an issue is put before them, if they do not all UNANIMOUSLY agree (or disagree) to something, the issue is tabled and NOTHING is done. Without the voice of all, even the most junior apostle, nothing moves forward until all can agree. The sealer said that is how the home should be. Decisions must be decided upon by both partners, and if they are not in harmony of opinion, NOTHING should be done. Doesn't sound like "submitting" to me . . . and that is a marriage I can live with. Now I just have to get Andy to stop agreeing to everything I say to test out the principle. :)
ReplyDelete(Jacque, good luck and yeah, you're amazing)
ReplyDeleteHeather--I think these types of feelings are inevitable in and out of the church, and usually come from ourselves more than anything. I tend to have an idea of what the perfect woman looks like and give myself a hard time whenever I don't measure up...or I read books and articles about other amazing women and feel like I'll never measure up...The thing about the gospel is that it is supposed to be about how our Heavenly Father loves us with our imperfections and asks us to come unto Christ to make the changes we need...Sometimes we feel like we can't draw near unto God until we are perfect, but that just isn't the case. Regarding submission, I guess I've never really felt belittled in any way, but I can see how some people might. I guess we're all just imperfect people trying to some degree to fix ourselves and/or the people around us.
We haven't talked in way too long--are you going to be anywhere near Utah this summer?
Heather,
ReplyDeleteYou are not alone in the feelings you wrote about in this post. . .back three years ago when David and I had moved back to Laramie a friend from the Spring Creek ward and I started writing a book about this very thing. This feeling of some sort of unobtainable status--the perfect mom, wife, etc. The premise of our book was to debunk all of the things that women say that you know are just a front to what they are really feeling. For example those who without hesitation say "I LOVE being a stay at home mom all the time"--I'll be the first to admit that I do not love being a stay at home all of the time. . .or even most of the time. I started working right after college graduation. . .and when the time came to stay at home with the birth of my first I struggled to enjoy the day-to-day life of being at home. I had worked hard for my degree and now I was wasting it as I read 5 page board books all day long. . .anyways. . .I have always voiced my opinion that I need an outlet, that being a full-time stay at home mom(i.e. no side jobs) was not for me--and have been met with a lot of criticism. Oh well. . .we all have to do what works for us. . .but I believe women need to get real and know that they don't need to be giving answers that they think everyone wants to hear.
Heather,
ReplyDeleteI think sometimes we forget that making mistakes are vital. This doesn't mean that we should purposefully make them, but that we should try our best to overcome them, with the help of our Father. This ideas that we have to be perfect is fiction. We need to be trying to do our best, and sometimes my best is yelling at my kids twice in one day (or more), getting a little aggravated at my honey and swearing a few times. But I try to focus on the atonement and that I am a work in progress. Also, this idea that there is a set time you should get married and a set time for this and that is also fiction. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR FAMILY! If you fall in love at 18 and you feel ready to be married, don't wait. If you aren't ready, then don't. You can't plan when you meet and fall in love with someone. The facts are this, life sucks, and for the most part it is a struggle. It is meant to be that way, I try to embrace that, rather than wish it should be easy. Love your topic, please do more!
Heather,
ReplyDeleteI hope you all don’t mind if I butt in and leave a priesthood holders opinion, but I would like to express some of my opinions about this issue.
When I was searching for my eternal companion I remember coming across a conference talk about seeking eternal marriage. In the talk the advice was given that if you are seeking for the perfect wife, you better give up because you will never find her. Even better, he pointed out that even if you did find her, she would never want to be with someone as faulty as you! The point was that while seeking a spouse, you should only seek someone who shares the same values and goals as you, someone who has the desire and drive to one day be perfect, and someone who works toward that end.
Jamie and I have been married for six years now. No, the house has never been perfectly clean and the kids are not always perfectly behaved. But Jamie works hard to be the best mother, homemaker and wife she can, and that is all I would ever expect from her. Sometimes when I come home and she is frustrated and sad, I have to assure her that to me, just working the best she can makes me more than happy. I know I could not do what she does, and I am amazed at her stamina.
As for making decisions in our family, I have never thought that I have the ultimate say in things. We openly discuss things together and come to a mutual decision as to what actions to take. Even if I feel as if I have received revelation concerning our family, I would discuss it with Jamie before ever implementing any action. The priesthood is after all meant to serve others, not to implement power or oppression over others. That is a key concept every priesthood holder is taught in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. As the scriptures clearly state, anyone who seeks to use this power for their own agenda, amen to the priesthood of that man!
Yet as men, we are often sinful and imperfect. Sometimes we fail to communicate our appreciation and love to the hard work our spouses put into our families, and give up our own desires for the others. I know I am guilty of this and I can understand and see how that would leave our wives to feel depressed and unvalued. I believe that when we are told ‘wives submit to your husbands’, more likely it is referring to the fact that both the husband and wife need to submit their own wants and desires to the needs of the family. It is this selfless sacrifice of both spouses that makes an eternal family. If both were to obey this principal, there would never be the unfortunate feeling of inequality in a marriage.
Thanks for letting me share,
Chet
Heather,
ReplyDeleteI hope you all don’t mind if I butt in and leave a priesthood holders opinion, but I would like to express some of my opinions about this issue.
When I was searching for my eternal companion I remember coming across a conference talk about seeking eternal marriage. In the talk the advice was given that if you are seeking for the perfect wife, you better give up because you will never find her. Even better, he pointed out that even if you did find her, she would never want to be with someone as faulty as you! The point was that while seeking a spouse, you should only seek someone who shares the same values and goals as you, someone who has the desire and drive to one day be perfect, and someone who works toward that end.
Jamie and I have been married for six years now. No, the house has never been perfectly clean and the kids are not always perfectly behaved. But Jamie works hard to be the best mother, homemaker and wife she can, and that is all I would ever expect from her. Sometimes when I come home and she is frustrated and sad, I have to assure her that to me, just working the best she can makes me more than happy. I know I could not do what she does, and I am amazed at her stamina.
As for making decisions in our family, I have never thought that I have the ultimate say in things. We openly discuss things together and come to a mutual decision as to what actions to take. Even if I feel as if I have received revelation concerning our family, I would discuss it with Jamie before ever implementing any action. The priesthood is after all meant to serve others, not to implement power or oppression over others. That is a key concept every priesthood holder is taught in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. As the scriptures clearly state, anyone who seeks to use this power for their own agenda, amen to the priesthood of that man!
Yet as men, we are often sinful and imperfect. Sometimes we fail to communicate our appreciation and love to the hard work our spouses put into our families, and give up our own desires for the others. I know I am guilty of this and I can understand and see how that would leave our wives to feel depressed and unvalued. I believe that when we are told ‘wives submit to your husbands’, more likely it is referring to the fact that both the husband and wife need to submit their own wants and desires to the needs of the family. It is this selfless sacrifice of both spouses that makes an eternal family. If both were to obey this principal, there would never be the unfortunate feeling of inequality in a marriage.
Thanks for letting me share,
Chet
I think that, as women, we operate on guilt a great deal of the time. I think the guilt trips come more from each other than the church, though. We judge each other for working or not working, for having children too young or too old, for bottle feeding our babies. As we come to realize that each situation is unique and become more concerned with our own lives than dissecting those of our friends, the happier we will be.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that the moment you come to realize being a stay at home mom is a huge sacrifice, rather than a 24/7 playdate, you become happier in your role as a stay at home mom. Our expectation that we are supposed to love it and have fun adds to the guilt by making us feel as if we're bad moms because we don't.
I think the judgment comes more from each other than from the church. We judge each other for working or not working, for having kids too young or too old, for bottle feeding our babies. I think that as we stop judging each other, we will become happier in our own roles.
ReplyDeleteI didn't join the church until I was almost 20 so I didn't grow up in the environment you are describing. I've never felt pressure to appear to be perfect or to have it all together. Those are pressures I put on myself. It's not just the church...but society in general..that tells us we should be able to do it all. I've learned to give myself a lot of slack over time and that has helped my sanity. :)
ReplyDeleteI do love to stay home with my kiddos and I will tell people that I 'get' to stay home with them and we have a ton of fun...which is all true. I don't think that that implies that I don't ever have moments, hours, or days where things are so far from perfect that I start thinking about looking up daycares in the area. lol. Any other (HONEST) Mom would not assume that everything is butterflies and fairy dust...and the one's who would judge you just aren't worth the mental effort it would take to pretend to be otherwise around them. (my two cents)
I concur what was said above. Before we were married, we spoke with the now former Stake President. He counseled us that if we pray about something and one receives a yes and the other receives a no....that just means we have to keep praying and neither one of us is 'right'.
I personally don't have an issue with the idea of submitting to our husbands. I was brought up in an 'unhealthy' environment myself and had vowed to never get married or at the very least date him for years before I even considered it. After baptism and the more I learned on this subject, I guess I've just always understood 'submitting' to mean respecting my husband as the head of the household and our Priesthood leader so long as he is living his life in accordance to the Lord's teachings. If he isn't...then I've no obligation to follow him. That doesn't mean that I see myself as 'beneath' him. On the contrary...just like I don't hold the Priesthood or have the same gifts given to men....he doesn't have the same gifts and talents that are bestowed upon us as women. We are each other's helpmeet and just balance each other. I can turn to my husband for council or bring up a topic and get advice from a completely different perspective than the one I was looking from. He is amazing and I feel blessed to call him my eternal companion. Being 'submissive' should never imply that you are less of a person or abused or just taking orders. Heavenly Father holds us in much higher regards than to want us to put up with that sort of treatment.
Oh, and the other thing I was gonna say...in regards to callings...I have been called in with my husband when it is for a presidency position to be asked if I will support him in his calling...but not for teaching, etc. I'm not sure why they get asked first...is it a 'head of house' thing? Priesthood thing? It's never bothered me. I just figure, if I dont understand it now...I will eventually. Although I'm sure that is something we could just ask and find out. :)
ReplyDeleteModeration in all things - that's what I have to say. Have you read that poem about the Relief Society president who did it all - and then she fell dead?
ReplyDeleteGod's not looking for perfection - he's merely looking for the efforts we put into it. So so what if my house is a mess and the baby's hair hasn't been done? If she's happy and Matt's happy and I'm happy - I believe that's all that truly matters.
That being said - I don't feel like I have to say any more. You know very well that I was married 5 years ago, at the ripe ol' age of 24 (ha!) and didn't have my first child until I was 28 - and a half, at that!
And you know what? I think I'm more reliable than half the girls my age - because I don't run around like a chicken with my head cut off. But that's a different topic for a different day. :)